Anti-Defamation League Bigots: Spectacularly Unclear On The Concept
Actual quote:
Collective guilt: it's a grand thing, ain't it?
The Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organization whose programs "counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry," has released a statement excoriating plans to build an Islamic community center and mosque near Ground Zero.What better way to counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry than to whip some up against Muslims? But if the ADL wants to sincerely argue "No mosque should ever be built near Ground Zero because a miniscule fraction of the world's Muslims once committed a horrible atrocity there," I would suggest in turn "No synagogue should ever be built near Mount Calvary because a miniscule fraction of the world's Jews once killed Christ there." And ban all churches from Jerusalem; a non-miniscule fraction of the world's Christians committed some truly appalling acts there during the Crusades.
Collective guilt: it's a grand thing, ain't it?
posted by Jennifer Abel at 1:44 PM
33 Comments:
Actually, Jennifer, the Jews didn't kill Jesus on Calvary. The Romans did. The Jews just handed him over.
So, no Italian restaurants in the Holy Land, because it's an affront to Christians.
Islam isn't quite like a normal religion.
The ground zero complaint is a preemptive No to that something else.
They believe in a God despite a complete lack of evidence for his existence and a holy book chock-full of statements later proven to be demonstrably untrue ... Islam is no more and no less normal than any other Abrahamic religion.
Also: fuck the bigots in the ADL.
Despite Islamic claims of being an Abrahamic faith, the evidence shows that Allah is the name of the moon god. The name of Mohammad's father, Abdouallah, meaning Servant of Allah demonstrates Allah worship predates Mohammad.
In a similar way that Catholicism incorporated pagan rituals on to Christianity (or did they superimpose Christianity on to a frame work of pagan saint worship?), Mohammad modified the Allah moon god worship with Abrahamic monotheistic window dressing. The crescent moon symbol of Islam belies its true origins.
If Abraham received promises from God any future revelations can clarify but should not negate those promises. That would make god a promise breaker and unworthy of worship.
The Koran ignores or contradicts Biblical promises while paying lip service to Abraham and to Jesus. You can't have it both ways. Jesus is either all that he claimed to be (the way, the truth, and the life; no one gets to the Father except through me) or a raving madman. He cannot be as Mohammad said, only a prophet.
Regardless of the truth about Jesus, Mohammad proves to be less than a inerrant prophet from God.
You can argue that Jesus is not the promised Messiah, but you cannot show that his promises are a negation of old Testament promises. In spirit,intention, and family, Jesus is of Abraham.
The history of Mohammad shows none of these connections to the faith of Abraham.
Oh goody, more judeo-christian hate for the new religion on the block. This is the problem with monotheists. They are so damned intolerant of others.
Despite Islamic claims of being an Abrahamic faith, the evidence shows that Allah is the name of the moon god .... In a similar way that Catholicism incorporated pagan rituals on to Christianity (or did they superimpose Christianity on to a frame work of pagan saint worship?),
If you look at the history of the ancient Hebrews, before they became monotheists, you'll see their god Yahveh was, in their polytheistic days, the Storm God (and most powerful of them all). So saying "Muslims worship a moon god" is just as accurate as saying "Christians and Jews worship a storm god" -- it's true, IF you want to pretend the modern followers of the religion worship the same god their pre-monotheistic ancestors did, and ignore all the character development those gods have undergone in the past several thousand years.
Armstrong and Getty audio (34 minutes in) say, as to its motive, it's a deliberate, intentional symbol of the Muslim conquest of America, including the name of it.
They promise more on the story Monday.
No reference to the ADL.
That "small minority" has committed 15,764 deadly acts of terror since 9/11. That is 15,764 people who died at the hands islamofascists. It would be a mistake to believe this is some "anomoly" and not part of their religious belief system. They raise their children to want to die to kill Jews and Christians. Does this really sound like the religion of peace?
Every group has their bad actors, that small minority that does things not representative of the group as a whole. The standard to be used to determine if that small minority are truely out of step with the larger majority should be as simple as what the rest in the group do in response to the crimes by the minority. It is here that the Muslims (the large majority) fail that test. Honest and emphatic denounciations by muslims of terrorist actions and the groups sponsering them is virtually non-existent. Even worse their actions speak louder then words when they continue to support terrorist groups with donations and excuses. All muslims have a duty to speak against these acts and to take steps within their communities to stop further terrorist acts. If/when they do not do this they are judged by their own actions or lack thereof.
Name withheld by request so someone from the religion of peace does not try to cut my head off...
Anonymous wrote
Honest and emphatic denounciations by muslims of terrorist actions and the groups sponsering them is virtually non-existent.
In the 16th to 19th centuries honest and emphatic denounciations by Christians of genocide and the groups sponsering it was virtually non-existent. And make no mistrake, bringing Jeebus to the heathens was one of the driving forces behind the genocide.
Christianity fail.
Or perhaps Anonymous can link me to his own writings denouncing European colonization.
I don't really give a rat's ass which non-existent supreme being somebody wants to worship. Nor do I give a crap about where they build their clubhouses. Fuck a bunch of holy sites and sacred/hallowed ground. That includes Ground Zero, Pearl Harbor, Mecca, Jerulselem, ancient Indian burial grounds and my sainted mother's birthplace.
Jennifer,
It is true that Semites worshiped many gods, but Abraham broke with those traditions and started a monotheistic tradition. There were no Hebrews before him, he started that group.
If Abraham's YHVH had its roots in a storm god, that is only more proof that Mohammad's religion with it's moon god origins is not an Abrahamic religion.
Regarding the main topic, I agree with J sub D: if a group owns the property let them build their clubhouse where they chose.
That "small minority" has committed 15,764 deadly acts of terror since 9/11.
at first i was all like "but, man, the us government has killed a lot more civilians than that" and then i was all "oh that's not what he meant".
Name withheld by request so someone from the religion of peace does not try to cut my head off...
is it possible you flatter yourself a teeny bit?
Whatever the history of Allah-worship prior to Mohammed, the Koran pays homage to Old Testament prophets as well as Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist. Whether or not "Abrahamic" is the perfect adjective for Islam, it has clear connections to Judaism and Christianity.
Thoreau,
That link of Islam to Abraham is as weak as a communistic "Peoples Republic" connection to a real republic, a perversion at best.
"Allah" is the Arabic language variant of the Semitic God L. L has many variants across the Semitic languages. The Hebrew variant is El, also referenced as Elah and Elohim. Traditionally, El is translated as "God" in English. El appears hundreds of times in the Tanakh, including Genesis 1:1, "Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets." El is also the God of Abraham; Abraham makes many references to the "Most High God", El Elyon. Hundreds of years prior to Muhammad, Arab Jews and Christians alike rendered El as "Allah" and offered worship and praise to "Allah". It is unlikely they were worshipping a pagan god of the moon.
So yes, Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Quit reading your Jack Chick tracts and learn something.
Middle East historian Philip K. Hitti claims that Abraham married the daughter of a priest of the moon god, and elevated that god into "the" god.
So the link between Allah and moon god, if Hitti, is correct, predates Islam and Christianity both.
Jersey,
El and Allah may be translated in to English as God, but those are poor, albeit ubiquitous, translations.
The Hebrew word, El spelled Alaph Lamed, is not a name for God. It is a descriptive title with precise meaning, strong leader. The meaning of the word comes from the meaning of the letters, aleph=strong, lamed=leader. Elohim denotes a plural or great quantity or quality.
That the arabic word Allah has a superficial resemblance to El is not evidence of commonality. It is said that Allah is either the Arabic word for God or the true name of God. It is not a descriptive title, nor does it have a similar meaning to the Hebrew El and its earliest usage is as the name of the moon god, not a generic name for a god.
You can believe that liberal notion that all gods are equal or we all worship the same god in our own ways. You can also go sing Kumbaya around the campfire while you burn those Jack Chick tracts.
I prefer the truth over liberal claptrap.
To J sub D: In every century in history various groups political and/or religious have committed horrendus acts. No group is immune. The question remains, do muslims stand up against these terrorist acts and the terrorists who commit them??? That is the question you attempted to evade before you devolved into obscenities.
As for "European colonizations": Can you name a single country in history, a single people who have not displaced someone to be where they are??? Even American Indians displaced Indians who had immigrated here before they did. When Europeans arrived on this continent Indians were killing and pillaging each other as they had for thousands of years before. For many reason the human history is one of war and cruelty. You seem to think by pointing to only "some" instances of that forgive all the others. Go figure.
To dhex: To my knowledge the U.S. has not intentionally killed any civilians. I agree in war people die; civilians, soldiers, women, men, children, adults. If you can thnk of someway to prevent wars then you should join the State Department or run for office. I think human history shows that wars will never go away and in all wars innocent people are killed. So I'm not sure of your point.
The meaning of the word comes from the meaning of the letters, aleph=strong, lamed=leader. Elohim denotes a plural or great quantity or quality.
Doubtful. The name was almost certainly first, when you consider how widespread it was among the early Semitic people.
That the arabic word Allah has a superficial resemblance to El is not evidence of commonality.
Actually, it is. Allah is a contraction of al-ilah ("the god"). In Semitic languages, the consonants are by far the most important conveyors of meaning. Elah and Ilah are both L-H words, which tells you that they are closely related. Of course:
1. They are both in L-H words.
2. They both refer to God in their respective, closely-related languages.
3. They are in very closely related
That's probably a total coincidence!
You can believe that liberal notion that all gods are equal or we all worship the same god in our own ways.
I'm telling you that Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike who speak Arabic call God "Allah". Christians and Jews did so for hundreds of years before Muhummad was even around. Tell me, were the Jews worshipping a moon god or the god of Abraham? Were the Christians horribly mistaken, ascribing the Trinity to the god of the moon? Are they now in fiery torment for their well-meaning, but misguided, idolatry?
Incidentally, this is also why we need to freak out over Spanish-speaking illegal immigrants -- even the ones calling themselves Christians actually worship a pagan god named "Dios." Probably related to the late Ronnie James. Not trustworthy.
Jersey Dude,
"Doubtful"?
I have taught Intro to the Hebrew Aleph Bet.
The term El and Elohim is used to denote strong leaders through out the OT. (e.g. Psalms "He judges amongst the *gods*") Once again a poor translation.
In Arabic Allah is never used to denote men who are leaders. It never refers to other gods in a generic way. It is the name of a specific god. It is not a name that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ever used for himself. It is not a translation of a name that YHVH called himself.
Jennifer. That is funny, but as good as Ronnie James Dios is, everyone knows that Clapton is
God.
"I thought you didn't believe in God."
"I don't," she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. "But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be."
Catch-22
If churches would just pay property taxes like all other property owners, no one would give a shit about who builds what church where.
Russ, taxing is how the gubmint first outlawed marijuana.
Incidentally, this is also why we need to freak out over Spanish-speaking illegal immigrants -- even the ones calling themselves Christians actually worship a pagan god named "Dios." Probably related to the late Ronnie James. Not trustworthy.
Funny you should bring that up. The Spanish Dios is of course derived from the Latin Deus. Three guesses as to the root of that word.
Christianity has the Trinity! Three Gods are One?
If that’s so traditionally monotheistic, why didn’t all the Jews just convert?
Many did. That is what the book of ACTS is about.
As a matter of fact, the fastest growth of synagogues is for Messianic worship. There are over 500 in the USA and 150 in Israel.
You aren't getting it. "Mosque" is only one phonetic dipthong or vowel away from "Moscow", the former capital of World Communism clearly indicating the source of the Cordoba Institute's purpose. An alternate Arabic name is "masjid" which sounds like "mashed yid", a violent and anti-Semitic slur ominously suggesting their True Purpose.
Of course if an alternate meaning of ilah is leader, then that argument will float, and if it floats it weights less than a duck and is therefore . . . a moon god!
So sayeth the Spider.
-- matthew h
The crescent moon symbol only became a Muslim symbol after the Turks took Constantinople, where the symbol had flown since the city was called Byzantium - and certainly pre-dated THAT time, too. Supposedly the symbol was meant to honor the moon goddess Diana.
Should Christians have tried to take back Jerusalem after the Muslim raiders took the city? I don't honestly know the answer. Should anyone ever come to the defense of the downtrodden? Again I don't know. But I think you mischaracterized what happened during the crusades. Was there violence? Of course, life and especially war was violent in that time. Was there more violence from the crusaders as you imply? Of course not in fact arguably there was far less violence by the crusaders then there was from the muslim invaders.
As for the Mosque at ground zero, why? I think it is a clear attempt by the Muslims to stick their finger in America's eye. There are a thousand mosques in New York so this isn't about bias or an anti-muslim issue. Time will tell but I would think the religion of peace would be smart to build a mosque elsewhere.
"the religion of peace"
Only the peace that comes with death - especially the infidel's death.
I'm not a believer, but if I had to pick one of the three Abrahamic religions, I think I'd choose the Jewish faith. It seems to be much more concerned with this life, in this world, and how to live it to its fullest. One can worry about the Afterlife when one gets there.
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